Hi Pentaxian friends.
Aside from writing books for the Pentax line of DSLRs and having this blog site, I surf the internet every night in search of anything Pentax. One of my favorite site and Forum is www.photo.net I enjoy posting there and reading the posts from all over the world.
Several regular contributors on the forum are particularly well informed. Those regular contributors often bring answers to the entry-level photographers, or display some gorgeous pictures, or post challenging point-of-views, etc. The common quality I find in these contributors is that they never belittle anyone’s opinion. I wrote to a handful of these good “Pentax” souls and invited them to participate in my blog by occasionally writing articles. At the end-of-the-day, I really want this blog site to be everyone’s Pentax blog site.
Today, I am introducing the first article by Miserere. Please shower him with greetings and comments. He already has a follow-up article, “My opinion of whether Pentax should pursue full-frame or not” that will follow soon.
I am excited and honored to have Miserere participating in this blog.
Aside from writing books for the Pentax line of DSLRs and having this blog site, I surf the internet every night in search of anything Pentax. One of my favorite site and Forum is www.photo.net I enjoy posting there and reading the posts from all over the world.
Several regular contributors on the forum are particularly well informed. Those regular contributors often bring answers to the entry-level photographers, or display some gorgeous pictures, or post challenging point-of-views, etc. The common quality I find in these contributors is that they never belittle anyone’s opinion. I wrote to a handful of these good “Pentax” souls and invited them to participate in my blog by occasionally writing articles. At the end-of-the-day, I really want this blog site to be everyone’s Pentax blog site.
Today, I am introducing the first article by Miserere. Please shower him with greetings and comments. He already has a follow-up article, “My opinion of whether Pentax should pursue full-frame or not” that will follow soon.
I am excited and honored to have Miserere participating in this blog.
Yvon Bourque
_________________________________________________________
Do You Really Need a Full-Frame Camera?
by Miserere:
As a child growing up in Europe I watched many American movies and TV series that showcased “the American Way of Life”. To my young eyes it seemed that everything in the United States was bigger, and that made it better. Or at least that was the message I received.
I first visited the US as a teenager and was surprised to see that what I had learnt from the movies was, in most cases, true. Everything was bigger! The cars, the houses, the roads, the burgers… It was great, I would go to McDonald’s and ask for a medium milkshake; what I got was the equivalent to Europe’s large size. And in the US there were still the large and the extra large sizes available!
As I became older, and hopefully wiser, I realised that bigger is not necessarily better. Bigger hamburgers can make you fat quicker. Bigger cars use up more fuel and are more expensive to maintain. Bigger houses, like cars, are not only more expensive to maintain, they also take longer to clean, and I hate cleaning! As for bigger roads, OK, I’ll admit that I do like driving in a wide lane, so let’s keep roads bigger, shall we?
Bigger is better, a mantra repeated down the ages. I’m sure cavemen worked hard to craft the longest spears, the largest bows, and used them to hunt the biggest prey, so it is only natural that in the modern World we should want everything to be BIG.
Should the sensors in our digital cameras also be the biggest they can be…? (See? I am going to talk about cameras, and you’re not on the wrong blog.)
Since the inception of DSLRs using cropped sensors (with the 16x24mm APS-C size being the most common) there has been a yearning amongst digital photographers to shoot with a camera incorporating a full-frame (FF) sensor (24x36mm, the size of 35mm film). Why? Maybe because we always desire what we cannot have, but serious complaints have been put forth by many photographers, and so the belief has endured that in order for DSLRs to come of age they need to evolve towards FF. Oh, because bigger is better, of course.
In the following paragraphs I will list the usual complaints against cropped sensors and attempt to give you a different perspective, one that might lead you to consider whether bigger is indeed better. Let us begin!
We’ve lost the wide angle.
A common complaint at the very beginning of cropped sensor cameras. The truth is camera makers released the new cameras without having a full stable of lenses ready for them, so while the bird photographers were having a ball with the 1.5 “magnification” provided by the crop factor, landscapers were crying out in pain for the loss of their beloved 24mm FoV. But in due course, lenses appeared designed specifically for cropped sensors that addressed this issue, and soon the standard kit lens became some variation of 18-50mm or 18-70mm, which offered the same FoV that the old 28-75mm and 28-105mm lenses had on 35mm film. Nowadays you can even buy the Sigma 10-20mm zoom…do you really need wider than 15mm-equiv.? So why are you complaining then?
The focal lengths are all wrong.
I never understood this one. Focal lengths are a characteristic of the lens, not of the camera. A 50mm lens will always be a 50mm lens, but the FoV it produces will depend on the size of the film/sensor surface you are using. On a 35mm camera, 50mm is considered neither wide nor telephoto, but on medium format film it is wide. On an Olympus 4/3 camera, it is a telephoto lens, while on APS-C it is a short telephoto. I suspect what people wanted to complain about was the fact that their standard zooms (28-75mm and 70-200mm) didn’t produce the same FoVs anymore. Enter Pentax, who decided to produce the new DA line of lenses that would mimic the FoVs of old. They now offer two standard fast zooms, the DA* 16-50mm f/2.8 (24-75mm-equiv.) and the DA* 50-135mm f/2.8 (75-200mm-equiv.), together with a DA 17-70mm f/4 (25-105mm-equiv.), a DA Ltd 35mm macro (53mm-equiv.), and more primes in the pipeline. If you really miss the old FoVs, then sell your old lenses and buy some new ones. Can you imagine a better excuse to feed your inner LBA.
We’ve lost control over the depth of field.
Again, I think photographers are actually complaining about something else, as DoF is still controlled with the size of the aperture. The DoF for a given aperture for a particular subject size on the image plane depends on the size of the film/sensor; the larger the size, the shallower the DoF will be. When they switched to APS-C, some photographers missed the thin DoF they could achieve with their f/1.4 or f/2 lenses. For a given subject size in your frame, and using the same aperture, an APS-C camera will provide about 1.6 times greater DoF than a FF. While it may seem like losing 60% of your DoF is a lot, we should remember that a common gripe amongst photographers, whether using manual or auto focus lenses, is that they missed the focus in a critical shot. Think about it; how many times has this happened to you? Having a larger DoF will only increase your chances of achieving correct focus, and I would think that is a good thing, don’t you? In order to achieve the same DoF as you would have with a FF camera (for the same subject size on frame), you will need to open your aperture up by an extra 1.25 stops approximately. This is feasible in most cases, unless in your film days all you did was shoot at f/1.2.
Cropped sensors have more noise.
This is true! For equal pixel count, a cropped sensor will have smaller pixels than a FF one. But although a FF sensor has twice the area of an APS-C, the individual pixels are not twice as large, but more like 1.5-1.6 times larger. We also need to remember that noise varies with the square root of the pixel area; so going from FF to APS-C increases the per pixel noise by a factor of around 1.26, which is about 2/3 of a stop. If FF pixels were twice the size of APS-C pixels, then the increase in noise would be a factor of 1.4 (1 stop). What this means in practical terms is that ISO200 on a FF camera should look like ISO100 on APS-C; this is assuming both sensors shared the same manufacturing technology and camera software! It bears noting that software has a lot to do with how noisy a particular camera is, possibly a lot more than sensor technology. But even more important than all these technical details is this: How many times do you need to shoot at ultra high ISO? I’m willing to bet that the vast majority of amateur photographs are taken at no more than ISO200, where the differences in noise between a cropped and FF sensor are insignificant. So why complain about noise if we are rarely going to be shooting at high ISO?
Cropped sensors don’t have enough resolution.
This may have been true a few years ago, but not anymore. Pentax released the 14.6MP K20D earlier in the year, while Canon have recently announced their upcoming 15MP 50D. Both use APS-C sensors and offer higher resolution, in linear pixels/inch, than the highest megapixel count FF sensor, the upcoming Sony 24.6MP A900. Furthermore, reports from K20D users suggest that its sensor is challenging their lower quality glass as far as resolution is concerned, so we may have caught up with the resolving power of the available lenses and this may mark the end of the megapixel race (which I would welcome with open arms). Another question I would ask you is “resolution for what?” My parents have a 15x20 photo hanging in their living room that I took with a 6MP P&S, and it looks great! With a 10MP DSLR you can print as large as 20x30 without worries. I believe that’s enough resolution for just about everyone.
Professional photographers use FF.
Professional photographers use whatever it takes to get the job done, period. It used to be that the pros used only medium format cameras, and those using 35mm SLRs were considered amateurs. Time passed, camera technology evolved, 35mm film evolved, and picture quality reached the proverbial “good enough” level. Shouldn’t we learn from the past? Cropped sensors are already being used by professionals, and will continue to be. With every new generation of sensors we find that resolution and IQ increase, while noise and read out times decrease. The only quality that never decreases is our capacity to complain about minutia.
The viewfinder is so small.
Have you actually looked through a digital FF viewfinder? It is not that big, and it is not that bright either. It does not look like the viewfinder you so loved on your ME Super, that I can assure you. If you want to be able to focus manually more easily, buy a replacement split-prism focusing screen for your current APS-C DSLR; it will be a much cheaper and practical upgrade than going FF.
Conclusion
I don’t want to start receiving hate mail telling me I am against FF digital, because I am not. What I am against is hearing and reading photographers complain about how they cannot do this or that because they don’t have a FF camera. Hopefully, I have addressed the major complaints thrown at APS-C sensors and have, if nothing else, made you think twice about what you think FF would really give you that you are not already getting from your current camera right now. FF does have many advantages, but I don’t think it is the Holy Grail that many are making it out to be and not owning one should not be keeping you awake at night.
Now, stop reading, pick up your perfectly capable APS-C Pentax DSLR, attach your oldest lens to it (extra points if it is an M42 Takumar), and go take photos. You see, you need practice, and if when Pentax brings out their FF you are still taking the same pictures you are today, then FF is going to do nothing to improve them and you’ll just be throwing money down the drain.
While you do that, I’ll go across the street and get myself a small strawberry milkshake; because when it is that tasty, small is all I need.
Thank you for reading.
Miserere
20 comments:
Jose, welcome to the blog. I like your writing style. The more we have the more useful to all Pentaxians out there.
Yvon Bourque
Good entry! I think this gives a nice overview of the argument for people too lazy (or too busy shooting) to read the arguments in forums all over the world. However, there's a point or two I'd like to add:
1. Resolution: While it's true that print sizes are no longer an argument for more megapixels, the ability to crop a picture without losing much quality surely is.
2. Larger Pixel Size: This not only makes for better low-ISO performance (by the way: I don't agree with the statement that most amateurs keep their ISOs at 200; in the days where low-speed zooms dominate the lens landscape, this is even more true), but for cheaper lenses.
3. high-speed constructions in the normal range. Normal lenses for APS-C (30-35mm) have to use wide-angle construction because as you said, focal length is a property of the lens alone. A 30mm 1.4 lens (though available by Sigma now) must have compromises that would not arise in "cheap" 50mm construction.
4. Dimensions: Today's APS-C Systems are largely based on 35mm. Though lenses with a smaller image circle are available (as you have stated), other properties such as the distance between bayonet and imaging plane are "relicts" from 35mm time. New developments such as µFT or the advent of a new "mirrorless" APS-C design by Samsung show where the future lies.
5. Price: As sensor manufacturing processes become more and more refined, the price for full frame will gradually drop. Today the high price should be considered primarily a marketing policy.
That being said, one shouldn't forget the many benefits APS-C gives us today, such as convenient telephoto-"crops" and lighter lenses. I for one enjoy using my APS-C Pentax, but would love to see a full frame model.
Excellent article. Thank You.
I still have my K10D, and was waiting for a FF Pentax, as I know in my heart that it will be the BEST FF on the market. I figured that I would just jump over the K20D ( which has to come out of my food budget). I guess that I will have to rethink that decision.
By the way, having to pay for my hobby from the food budget, means less food and a thinner me (ha-ha).
Please keep doing what you are doing. I have learned more from you, your web sites and your book, than any other source.
CW Garre
Cape Cod
Mis, You mentioned in the article that''The viewfinder is so small.
Have you actually looked through a digital FF viewfinder? It is not that big, and it is not that bright either. It does not look like the viewfinder you so loved on your ME Super, that I can assure you. If you want to be able to focus manually more easily, buy a replacement split-prism focusing screen for your current APS-C DSLR; it will be a much cheaper and practical upgrade than going FF.''
I have not heard of this ''buy a replacement split-prism focusing screen for your current APS-C DSLR'' but has me very interested...
I really enjoyed the article and have a few questions, but will post them in P.net as to not hijack this blog...
Great, great job ''Bravo''..
javier
First of all, I wish to thank Yvon for giving me the opportunity to share my opinions with fellow Pentaxians. I hope to keep doing it on a semi-regular basis.
Thanks also for the comments, guys; I'm glad you liked the article. Let me provide some individual replies:
Caligula, yes, there were a few more things I could've mentioned, but I wasn't trying to write a treatise, just a short article :-) Moreover, I didn't set out to promote APS-C, just to show that most of the FF advantages aren't deal breakers. Both sensor sizes have their benefits and drawbacks, but both can produce great pictures when in the right hands.
CW Garre, I am also a budget shooter, and this was one of the reasons I wanted to write such an article. I don't want Pentaxians with a 10 or 6MP APS-C cameras to feel like they got a rotten deal.
Javier, for those of us who use manual focus often, a focusing screen with a split prism can be very useful. You can get expensive ones from Katzeye, or cheaper versions (made from cut-down K1000 focusing screens) from Chinese sellers on eBay. I have one of these Chinese screens and have been quite happy with it.
Good post! As one who, despite my advanced years, never had the full frame 35mm film experience, I wondered what all the fuss was about and this this helped me understand.
The joke is that you'd probably hear much the same curmudgeonly griping from me if they try to pry my fingers from my cropped sensor cameras. ;~)
I don't quite understand "bigger pixels" though--wouldn't one of the attractions of a larger sensor be the possibility of having more pixels of the same size?
dadipentak, in reply to your bigger pixels question, that depends on what you're
after.
12MP in a larger sensor will give you better low-light performance, and in normal light it should give you better dynamic range. This is why the Nikon D3 has become so popular with sports photographers, who need good low-light performance at high shutter speeds.
Nikon is going to be releasing its third FF camera soon, probably called D3x, which is likely to incorporate Sony's 25MP sensor, which I believe has roughly the same individual pixel size as the K20D. With this sensor you gain resolution more than anything else, and it would appeal to landscape or architectural photographers, for example. It's a smart thing for Nikon to do, release these two FF cameras, as photographers can pick the sensor they want according to their needs.
Hopefully the next step is a body with interchangeable sensors so we
can get the best of both worlds depending on what we're going to shoot on a particular day.
Excellent article Miserere and well reasoned on the various points. I now have a better understanding of the noise issue. Although 97% of my shooting is done below ISO400 and the camera is often stuck at 100. I think the points made on high ISO shooting are sound.
I used to always shoot slide film at either 25 or 64 and only rarely shot anything higher. I wonder if those slower speeds will ever be available again?
The idea of a replaceable sensor is great. We've lost that flexibility from the film days. Many of us (myself included) would carry 2 or 3 bodies with different film in each. Then you just grabbed the camera that had the right film for the given situation or effect you wanted to get.
Bring on the B&W sensor!
70-200f2.8L on FF @ f5.6 ~= DA* 50-135 on APS-C @ f4, but weighs a whole lot less, and costs less too.
interesting read, and great writing Mis! some of the technical details go over my head but the gist makes good sense to me... like Javier I am interested in this prism thingymajig you've mentioned... Would that help someone like me who is always smashing the right lens of my spectacles up to the viewfinder?
Very informative. Thanks Mis. I would like to get more of a technical handle on things like noise and pixels and dynamic range etc. Will have to read up more, but for now, your explanation is clear and precise.
Thanks Mis, I will look into one of the cheaper split prism screens.
Good input. FF vs. digital crop will always be a choice of different parameters, the light weight of pancakes can't be beat; I think I'll always have a crop Pentax for light-weight.
FF should be seen in the right light, though for some it is like a holy grail. But usually a cause for good discussions :-).
Until price vs. performance improves, I can't see myself going FF. Pentax will go FF some day, till then I'm fine with what I have. I also like the extra reach that digital crop gives. There is no law that says the film format should also be for DSLR.
This site has really taken a step up, since last time I came by. Good work, Yvon. I found a lot of valuable other information that I was missing.
I'd have to disagree w/ your ISO comment as well. Most FF sensors (except the Sony one) use bigger photosites the size of the old 6mpix CCDs like the K100D. They get roughly 2-3 stops improvement. As for what people would use it for, if you've tried doing sports or wedding photography, you wouldn't need to ask...
Sony has also answered the "why would APS-C users bother w/ FF?" question. The cropped version of their FF sensor is roughly the same resolution as a normal APS-C sensor. Slap on your APS-C lens and use it on your FF camera, but you'll have FF's features if you need it (e.g. high resolution landscape pictures so a tree doesn't look like 6 pixels...it'd be 10 pixels :-)
None of this says you can't keep your K10D/K20D if FF comes along nor does it say anything is wrong w/ a nice APS-C body. I still use my 6mpix Fuji F30 which I think is the best of the P&S cameras for low light...I refuse to upgrade in the silly P&S megapixel race w/ crappy low light performance. I run the F30 up to ISO400. I run my K10D up to ISO800 indoors (and ISO1600 in brought outdoor sports conditions). An extra stop or two means I don't necessarily need 2.8 lenses but if I had one, I'd get an extra stop of shutter speed.
Ken, we can agree to disagree on ISO :-)
A pixel that is twice as large will gather twice as many photons in the same time interval and gain 1 stop in ISO performance. That's just Physics. But I stand by my remark in the article: "It bears noting that software has a lot to do with how noisy a particular camera is". What you do with the photons you've gathered is very important, and that's where the proprietry software of each brand comes in.
Let's not forget hardware either. If two sensors have equal pixel sizes, but one of them is designed such that its read-out noise is lower than that of the other sensor, then it will gain an advantage in ISO performance.
Advances in software and hardware is why high-ISO performance improves with every new camera introduced, even though pixel sizes are getting smaller.
But Ken, I'm with you on the trees; they look a whole lot better with 10 pixels! :-D
Excellent article. I agree that the FF chip is not the answer to all the photographer's dream. It was nice to read about how the chip size and the resolution will appeal to different types of photographers. Waiting for the next article!
Cheers
-E
I can understand why only the big players are doing FF. The FF niche is small and will probably continue to be so. I just think it's sad that the view through today's entry-level DSLR kits is so dark and dim, and I think a lot of people agree on this point.
Yes, yes, we shouldn't pine too much over that which does not exist.
But, just because a digital K1000 hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be done.
And yes, we can get wide angle lenses for DSLR. But there are still people, those who love fast wide angle lenses, who would be hypothetically better off with an FF DSLR if it were affordable enough. If the price of the body were low enough, they'd be getting what they want cheaper. It's not that the focal lengths are all wrong. It's the prices: 24mm/1.8 (35mm/2 equiv.) is $500. That's just not right.
Great article, Mis!
How about this: FF digital cameras are frickin' expensive, $2000 at minimum. And FF digital lenses are really expensive too. And there aren't many of them. And a FF DSLR with all the features you've come to expect is much bulkier than an APS-C camera (are there any FF DSLRs with in-body stabilization???).
Whereas APS-C cameras are lighter, cheaper, and in so many respects far superior to full-frame film SLRs. I think about the fact that in grad school my dad paid the equivalent of $1000+ for a fully-manual Minolta SLR and 50/1.7 lens. Now here I am in grad school and I got my K10D with standard zoom, 70-300/4-5.6, and an A50/1.7 for about $800 total. Now that's progress :-)
Miserere,
Good information. I've just purchased the DA*50-135 and love it. I recently met a shooter of a FF camera who had attached to his camera a HUGE 70-200 f2.8 L lens. I was quite pleased to think that I was getting similar range and speed with a high quality, but much more reasonable priced lens for a non-pro.
As much as I would love a FF and high quality lenses, they seem to be about 3x the price. I'm so pleased that Pentax has chosen for the time being to concentrate on good cameras and high quality digital APS-C sized lenses. It's a quality system at a reasonable price.
Phil
nice article!thanx for sharing mate!really appreciate it~
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